an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host, Tyler Zach, and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between. In today's episode, I'm sharing a live Q&A I hosted with the Enneagram godmother herself, Suzanne Stabile, during one of our Typish summits. Some of the things we cover include how to respond to conservative Christian criticism of the Enneagram, whether certain types are more prone to narcissism or other mental health diagnoses, how trauma affects your type, how to identify your type without a test, and what healthy growth looks like for twos, sixes, nines, and more. If you've ever wished you could be a fly on the wall and listen in as Suzanne shares her trademark wisdom, this episode is the next best thing. Now, without further ado, let's dive into the Q&A.

Tyler Zach (02:30)

The first question — actually, there are two questions that are somewhat related. The first comes from Greenwood, Delaware. He asks: what are a few ways to introduce the Enneagram to those who might be resistant, especially if they're from a Christian tradition that looks with suspicion on tools like the Enneagram? And related to that: how do you respond to the latest criticism from Jackie Hill Perry? Many churches have removed the opportunity to even discuss the Enneagram because of stances like that.

Suzanne Stabile (03:13)

I would start by saying: I think it's okay if some people don't want to explore the Enneagram. The Enneagram is just one spiritual tool — it's just one, and it's actually better when used alongside others. So I don't ever try to defend the Enneagram, and I don't encourage others to either. If people on the other side of the conversation have already made up their minds, you end up in a debate you can't win. Decisions have already been made.

On the other hand, one of the best ways to talk about the Enneagram — rather than leading with numbers or personality types — is to describe it as nine ways of seeing the world. That's what it is. It's nine ways of seeing. And along with that, it's an opportunity to do things better, to be a better human being. Unlike other personality frameworks — Myers-Briggs, StrengthsFinder, and the others — the Enneagram gives you something you can both learn from and act on at the same time. The goal of being able to learn and do in order to become more whole is essentially the point.

I sometimes believe that the skepticism, and the effort to remove the Enneagram from our conversations, comes from a misunderstanding that there is nothing inherently spiritual or biblical about the Enneagram. It is spiritual wisdom — but it's not church, it's not religious in any prescribed way. The words I would use are: it's not religious, it doesn't claim to be religious, and the Enneagram is recognized in every faith tradition. Which perhaps explains why some people are afraid of it. And honestly — and this makes me very sad, but I think it's true — I believe some people are genuinely confused about the difference between an Enneagram and a pentagram. That's just a lack of understanding. The word Enneagram comes from looking at the symbol and recognizing that in Greek it simply means nine points. Nine ways of seeing the world.

I encourage people to read a little, look at it once, and then if it's not helpful to them, that's okay. In a one-on-one conversation, the best way I know to get someone interested in the Enneagram is to hand them a copy of The Road Back to You and ask them to read about your number — with an introduction something like: "This book really explains me in ways I've struggled to explain myself to you. Here's what it says about how I see the world. Would you just read this one part? Because I want you to know me. And then I really would like my book back." What happens once people recognize that what's in The Road Back to You is not threatening in any way, and that it perfectly describes you, is that their curiosity about themselves kind of takes over — because we all want to know about ourselves.

And finally: there are people who just don't want to know their number. They may know enough to guess it and not want anyone else to know, because they're not healthy in their number. And that's okay too. In churches and social circles, I would encourage you not to talk about the Enneagram using that word, or using numbers. There's nothing you need to say about what you're learning or how it's affecting your life that you can't say without announcing that you're a five or a seven or a one. You don't need that language to talk about what you're learning about yourself. And that sets the table for people to ask questions rather than you trying to convince them of something. The convincing part — I'd give that up. My response to anyone publicly attacking the Enneagram is: okay. There is no philosophy — and I mean no philosophy — that doesn't suggest self-knowledge is essential if you want to know who you are in relationship to God. That's a lot of talking. I hope it helps.

Tyler Zach (08:33)

Thank you. That's very helpful, Suzanne. The next question comes from a social six with a seven wing. He asks: are there any types more susceptible to what we'd call classic or overt narcissism?

Suzanne Stabile (08:49)

Probably — but I'm not going to talk about that without also talking about the types that are susceptible to other well-defined and well-understood struggles. And I'm going to get a little preachy first. The preachy thing I want to say is: all of a sudden everyone is a narcissist. That language is everywhere in our culture, and I genuinely don't understand why. People are labeling others as narcissists because they don't like them, or because they think they're selfish, or because they were hurt. That's not what narcissism is. We need to stop doing that. Okay — I'm done preaching. For now.

With that said: threes are the most likely to be identified as struggling with narcissism, or to be labeled as a narcissist by someone else. Ones are frequently misidentified or misrepresented as obsessive-compulsive. Fours are often being diagnosed as bipolar or bipolar type two. Fives — particularly introverted fives — are often told they're probably on the autism spectrum, or that they might have Asperger's. Sevens are frequently misdiagnosed as ADHD, while nines are often misdiagnosed as having ADD. And eights, of course, are frequently misdiagnosed as oppositional defiant.

And let me add something I want to go back and include: sixes are often misdiagnosed with anxiety disorder. There's so much anxiety in our culture right now. But to be very clear about all of these: any of those diagnoses could apply to any number. I was pointing to where misidentification most often happens — not to suggest these are exclusive to those types.

Tyler Zach (11:24)

Wow. That's so helpful, Suzanne. The next question comes from Gabriel. She asks: how can helping as an Enneagram two look different from what most people imagine — cleaning, meeting kids' needs, that sort of thing? Can it look more like helping with information or problem solving?

Suzanne Stabile (11:54)

I would suggest that what she's asking about is the difference between an average two and a healthy two. All the helping that people associate with twos — cleaning, cooking, tending to children — those things tend to come from an average or unhealthy two, or from a two who is in excess in their number. Many women — particularly in my generation and in certain church denominations — misidentify as twos when they're really sixes or another number, because they grew up being expected to do all of those things.

Younger women who are twos often don't see themselves that way and don't accept that as the only definition of giving. We all have a different skill set. If you're a two, the challenge is to make sure you've answered three really important questions before you help anyone with anything. I ask myself these questions sometimes — though I sure forget sometimes. Here they are. First: why am I moving toward this other person? Regardless of what kind of help you're going to offer, start with that. Why are you going to help? Second: what, if anything, do I expect to get in return? And third: does the other person want my help? If you answer those three questions honestly, then the arena of help that will be received graciously is the whole world — as long as you're doing it for the right reason, the other person wants it, and you're offering something that's genuinely yours to give.

So don't limit yourself to whatever you've historically considered "helping" as a two. There are so many ways to give. You'll frequently be happier and a better giver when you're doing what is actually yours to do. And here's the punchline: the question I ask myself every morning while I'm drinking my coffee is, "What is mine to do today?" When a two can answer that question honestly, priorities get clearer. Because every yes means you're saying no somewhere else. Knowing where to say yes requires knowing what you're willing to say no to.

Tyler Zach (16:03)

Very helpful, Suzanne. Terry attended a workshop with you in Richmond and she asks: in your experience, which format do you find most beneficial for transformational personal growth — coaching, workshops, cohorts, retreats? And do you enjoy one over another?

Suzanne Stabile (16:30)

Here at the Micah Center, we have a phrase that I think explains my answer pretty well: "A place for solitary work that can't be done alone." If you don't have some accountability, if you aren't in conversation with someone else so that you understand that other people are also struggling — if those things aren't happening for you, then studying the Enneagram just by reading or by yourself is not going to be particularly helpful.

I've had many people through the years come to my workshops and cohorts who are now Enneagram coaches, and I support that. My concern is that you have to do your work in the context of relationships — that's where you learn who you are, how you are in the world, what you get wrong and what you get right. I worry sometimes that coaching can end up focusing more on how you deal with other people than on how you deal with yourself. And this is your work to do. Other people have to do their own work.

I also have a concern about the tendency in coaching settings — and elsewhere — to make a lot of assumptions about what numbers other people are. The Enneagram number is determined by motivation, not by behavior. And we very seldom know the motivation of the people in our lives, particularly the people we work with.

I'm also not a fan of trendy Enneagram. I don't believe you can figure out your number from the kinds of things that circulate on social media. I can't tell you how many off-the-charts questions we get — one came in just this morning asking whether someone could be a "seven slash three and a four slash nine" because that's what a test said. That's an example of how much bad — meaning inaccurate — information is out there. I now start every teaching I do with a Q&A to address these things, because if I don't clear it out, the room can't really learn. I hope I answered the question — I may have overanswered, as I tend to do.

Tyler Zach (20:34)

The next question is from Tamara, a public school teacher also working bedside with kids at a children's hospital in Los Angeles. She asks: can someone be a type four without the emotional intensity that typically characterizes a four? This kind of connects to what you said about behavior versus motivation.

Suzanne Stabile (21:00)

Yes — and in her position, particularly yes. There's no way she could do that work and give in to the excess that fours sometimes fall into. She can't do that and do what she's doing. Hats off to her. And it's worth noting that the stress number for a four is two — so between those two numbers, the children she's working with are going to get exquisite care.

She didn't ask this, but I'd encourage her to look into the work of our daughter Joey and her husband Billy — you can find them at Enneagram Parents. They do really good teaching on helping parents understand what stance their children are in. In her position working with children, she may find it helpful to identify what stance the kids she works with are tending toward. I think that could be very useful.

Tyler Zach (22:12)

Jimmy from Atlanta asks: I'd like to develop the conversational skill of asking the right questions to help a person discover the Enneagram type they most identify with. Are there any suggestions for doing Enneagram exploration through personal conversation rather than just sending someone to take an assessment?

Suzanne Stabile (22:37)

I wouldn't send them to a test or inventory at all — it's wrong a high percentage of the time, and then people try to live into the number the test told them they were. If you get a copy of The Path Between Us and the study guide for that book — that's my second book — you'll find all the questions you need in those chapters.

Tyler Zach (23:07)

Kim is a female pastor and a social nine who loves the Enneagram and works with it often. She asks: how can I balance helping others with helping myself — the latter being sorely lacking?

Suzanne Stabile (23:32)

I would encourage you to work with your childhood messages — and if you don't know this teaching, it comes from Riso and Hudson. Let me introduce it so everyone knows what we're talking about. They did significant early work around what they called unconscious childhood messages and lost childhood messages. The unconscious childhood message is one you simply didn't receive in childhood — it may have been offered, but you didn't absorb it. The lost childhood message is one you needed, didn't receive, and aren't even aware of having missed.

For nines, the unconscious childhood message is: it's not okay to assert yourself. And the lost childhood message is: your presence matters. Self-care is very hard to reach if you don't believe you can assert yourself, because saying no is a form of asserting yourself. And if you don't believe your presence matters, you keep giving yourself away to places where you think it does matter — and then you give too much, and all the things that come from that happen.

I really encourage people asking these kinds of questions to do some work at the intersection of Enneagram and discernment. Discernment is a process — a process of understanding yourself, looking at what you say yes to that you end up wishing you weren't doing, and learning to believe that your presence actually matters. Because if you don't take care of yourself, you won't be able to do the things where your presence is genuinely needed.

I also think there's something intuitive in nines that tries to resist sloth, which is the passion for nines. And sloth doesn't mean laziness or inactivity — it means a desire to be unaffected by life. Once you really sit with that definition and start looking at the things you're trying to avoid letting affect you, you'll find where you need discernment. That's where the work is.

Tyler Zach (26:29)

Jenny from Indiana asks: how do you handle frustration and resentment when your partner doesn't care about their emotional or spiritual health?

Suzanne Stabile (26:51)

Over my twenty-six years or so of teaching, I can't tell you how many times I've been asked that question. You're not alone.

This is an individual journey for everyone. When Joe and I teach — and he's said this many times — we say: everybody needs a therapist and everybody needs a spiritual director. If you're working with a spiritual director, that's the place where you develop better discernment tools. In this particular situation, if you are pushing your partner, be mindful that there are numbers who deeply resist being pushed. I happen to be married to one. Joe is the best human being I've ever known — truly — and he's stubborn because he's a nine. If you push nines, they dig in and won't do it.

On the other hand, it is genuinely costly to be in a relationship where one person is growing and maturing and experiencing transformation, and the other person isn't. I would suggest that you deal with your resentment and frustration in therapy — and then invite your partner into therapy with you. Relationships where both people aren't moving in the same direction need help to get both people on board. I'm sorry. I know how hard it is to be growing and to love someone who isn't interested. But you can't make them interested by pushing.

Tyler Zach (29:17)

Peg, from Council Bluffs, Iowa, asks: how can women in ministry leadership be heard without being negatively labeled — just for voicing a dissenting opinion? This resonates with me personally. My views on women in ministry have changed over the years — primarily from wrestling with the Bible and developing a different hermeneutical approach, but also because the Enneagram has been really helpful in helping me see how God has wired women. Can you offer some encouragement or guidance?

Suzanne Stabile (30:05)

I can offer support and compassion and share the frustration, and maybe I can be helpful. I know that's not the most encouraging setup, but it's honest.

There are some things I genuinely don't understand. My husband Joe is a United Methodist pastor, and we were one of the first denominations to ordain women — and yet I can name very few women serving large or culturally significant churches in our denomination. I just don't get it. Here's what I think is true: women in ministry are somehow seen as having arrived late to the table. There seems to be an overarching assumption in many churches that says, "We already have all this history here, we already know how we do things, and you weren't here for that." So my best offer is: ask questions, don't make statements. Ask hard questions.

And if that isn't working, go to the lead pastor and say something like: "How can I be heard in my position on our team? I feel like I have some good things to say. I've thought about how to approach this, and I really need some guidance. Can you help me find a platform for my voice? Can you help me understand why this is such a challenge?" Once you do that, you've flipped the challenge — and now it's on them, not you. Not in a mean-spirited way, but in the sense that once you name it directly and ask for help, the other person has to reckon with it. And if the answer is, "I know that's a problem and I don't know how to fix it," then you say: "That's okay — I wasn't expecting to resolve this today. Could we schedule time in two weeks? That'll give you time to think, and I'll come with some ideas for what we might do together."

Tyler Zach (32:57)

Victoria, a social seven, writes: are there types that are a particularly difficult pairing for marriage? Are there types that do really well together? I know people always wonder: did I marry the wrong type?

Suzanne Stabile (33:25)

Here's the answer: in Enneagram work, there's healthy, average — which is where we spend most of our time — and then unhealthy, excess in your number, and pathology. The real goal is to hang out in the high side of average and work your way up into healthy. We're not talking about pathology here — I only do that in settings with trained therapists.

What I will say is this: it doesn't matter what two numbers you put together. If you're both doing what I call your work — if the goal for each of you is to be as healthy as you can be — then Enneagram numbers don't matter that much. When you're both healthy, the differences between your types become an advantage rather than a disadvantage. So the goal is for you to be as healthy as you can be and continue doing your work. And frankly: if you do that, it's going to be difficult to be in relationship with any of the nine numbers if that other person isn't committed to the same kind of self-awareness, self-knowledge, and identified goals for transformation that you have. That's the thing that makes a pairing hard — not the numbers themselves.

Tyler Zach (35:06)

Elke is tuning in from Australia. She's also a type nine. She says she often picks up the emotions of those around her. How do I grow to a place of having compassion for others' moods without merging with them and losing my own joy?

Suzanne Stabile (35:29)

There's a difference between participation and merging. And when other people's moods are affecting you, it's not helpful to do that nine thing of just going, "Well, I might as well go along with it." You can participate in the relationship by saying: "I care about you — whatever the relationship is — but I don't feel that way. And I'd be happy to have a conversation about that. Here's why it's a disconnect for me." When we name what we're afraid of and put it on the table, the relationship is always helped by it. Things get better.

What nines are afraid of in relationships is disconnection and fragmentation. The reason they merge is to avoid those two things. But you can participate without merging — you can be part of a collective solution rather than an either-or. What you want to walk away with is: both my feeling and your feeling, while different, are valid. Nines can say: your reaction and response to your feeling is very big right now, and I'm trying to find room for mine.

Tyler Zach (37:15)

That's so helpful — participation versus merging. Michelle, from Brandon, Manitoba, has taken your Enneagram Journey course and asks from a type six perspective: I'm thinking-dominant as a six and thinking-repressed in the compliance stance. How can my thinking be more productive?

Suzanne Stabile (38:08)

That is such a good question. And it's hard to be a three, six, or nine in the compliance stance and have your dominant and repressed centers be the same. I want to tip my hat to how genuinely difficult that is. Productive thinking is the goal, and I have a few thoughts on how to get there.

First, you've already taken step one by naming this is hard for me. That matters. Now — for those who aren't familiar: sixes scan the horizon for danger. When they see danger or the potential for danger, they make a plan for the worst possible outcome, and then they vigilantly wait — prepared for that thing to happen. And a high percentage of the time, the thing doesn't happen. What I'd encourage you to do is journal: write down the thing you're worried about and then whether or not it happened. Do that for two or three weeks. Then go back and estimate how much time and mental energy you spent planning for something that never occurred. Once you do that, you'll be genuinely unhappy about how much of your wonderful brain you've been using to plan for things that aren't going to happen. All of that has to do with anxiety. Fear is technically the passion for sixes, but anxiety is the better word — sixes worry about possible future events.

The second thing: recognize that the gift of the compliance stance — which I'm in too — is that our natural orientation is to the present moment. What you need to practice is refocusing from what's out there that could happen, to what's right in front of you. And you're actually wired to do that. What's right in front of you is the thing you can affect, the thing you can actually do something about — if you give it your energy instead of spending it on possible future events.

You can't always control how you take things in, but you can choose what you take in. As a six, you can learn to refocus. Take a deep breath. Some people find prayer beads helpful — carrying them in a pocket, using the rhythm of them to get grounded. Whatever creates that rhythm for you, use it to come back to the present rather than letting your mind spiral into what might happen if this and then that and then this other thing.

And here's the word I use for myself right now, because I'm not a productive thinker either: lazy thinking. Ones, twos, and sixes are prone to lazy thinking. And lazy thinking takes up too much space in our one wild and precious life. When I catch myself going down that road, I ask: is there any reason for this thinking? Is this lazy thinking? And if it is — I'm not going to give into it.

Tyler Zach (42:10)

Suzanne, I loved hearing you say that you still have work to do. That's so good. After all these decades of teaching, you still have your own ongoing work with your type.

Suzanne Stabile (42:15)

Oh my gosh. One of the things I always open a stance workshop with is: this is work for a lifetime. You'll never finish.

Tyler Zach (42:41)

Amen. Let's do one more question and then you can share any final thoughts. Susan asks: how does trauma and early childhood experience affect finding your type? And I'd add: how have you seen past trauma lead people to mistype themselves?

Suzanne Stabile (43:07)

I want to say first that this topic is not just theoretical for me. I'm adopted at birth — and that's trauma. When I was sixteen, I was a foreign exchange student and was sexually abused by the men in the family I lived with, and that's trauma. Coming back from that experience in Europe, I repressed all of it so completely that it took many years for it to surface. My dad was a doctor, and he found me a really good therapist when it did. Having said all of that, I understand deeply the reality of what I'm about to teach.

Your number is well formed by the time you are five. I have said this, and I will continue to say it because I genuinely believe it's true: we are genetically predisposed to be a certain number. I'm not a geneticist and I can't teach you how that works. What I can tell you is what I've learned from the people in the room here at the Micah Center over many years of apprentice programs and cohorts — they've taught me as much as I've taught them.

What trauma does is cause us to operate intuitively from excess in our number. That's when you're doing all the most unhealthy things your type does. And that's where people who have experienced trauma can get stuck for a very long time. The difference between children who experience trauma and children who don't, in terms of their Enneagram number, is that it simply takes longer for those who have experienced trauma to work their way up from excess through unhealthy and into average behavior. And "longer" can mean years.

I find it very comforting that trauma doesn't change your Enneagram number — because if it did, that would erase hundreds of years of Enneagram wisdom and be deeply confusing. Your number doesn't change. What changes is how much access you have to the higher, healthier expressions of it.

The other thing to know if you're doing trauma work is this: you have to know your stress number. If you've ever learned your number in a workshop or another setting, I would encourage you to go back and listen to your stress number being taught as well. In those teachings, you'll likely recognize behaviors you adopted during or after the traumatic experience that have been hard to let go of even as you've grown and gotten healthier — because those behaviors were your way of getting through. When you hear me teach on stress and security, you'll hear me say: you cannot take care of yourself without the number you go to under stress. You have to have it. But you also have to understand what it looks like to be in excess in your own number — so you can recognize where you were coming from, and understand the climb that it is to reach health in your number. I hope that's helpful.

Tyler Zach (47:18)

That is so helpful. Thank you so much for sharing that, including your own story. We're at time now. I just want to say, on behalf of everyone here — thank you. Thank you for your vulnerability, for speaking to so many specific situations, and for giving us an hour of your day. We really appreciate it.

Suzanne Stabile (47:53)

I love to teach by answering questions — it's my favorite way to teach. So I would suggest the gift is all mine. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for asking good questions. Thank you for learning the Enneagram. For anybody doing this work, we're all in it together to try to make the world a better place. Thank you for your contribution to that.