Welcome to Typish, an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host, Tyler Zach, and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between. In today's episode, I'm joined by Enneagram 4 Dr. Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today. Previously, Dr. Moore served as president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. In 2021, he resigned after years of sustained criticism and threats over his public stances on a number of issues, including his criticism of President Donald Trump, his comments on race and immigration, and his advocacy for addressing sexual abuse within the SBC. He is a courageous man whom I deeply respect and admire. I sat down with Dr. Moore for a conversation to hear his perspective as a public theologian on whether Christians should use the Enneagram, and to find out what he finds meaningful about being an Enneagram 4. To learn more about Dr. Moore, his books, and his podcasts, visit russellmoore.com. Now, without further ado, let's jump into the interview.

Tyler Zach (02:25)

As a public theologian and editor-in-chief of Christianity Today — what are your thoughts on Christians using the Enneagram?

Russell Moore (02:38)

I think it's a helpful tool for me. If you don't want to use it, don't. It's similar to the debate from fifteen or twenty years ago about whether Christians should read Harry Potter. I think the arguments against reading Harry Potter are kind of silly, because they would apply just as much to Tolkien and Lewis and many others. I have no problem reading Harry Potter or having my children read Harry Potter. If you don't want to, don't.

With the Enneagram: if it's a tool you find helpful for understanding yourself and the people around you, great. If you don't, fine — find some other way to understand the differences in the people in your life. I wouldn't say I'm an enthusiast insisting that everyone needs to take an Enneagram test, but I've found it helpful.

Tyler Zach (03:56)

You've done a lot of thinking about engaging culture. And I think a lot of people default to labeling things good or bad, because it feels safer to just stay away. I remember a quote from J.K. Rowling that said she'd never met a child who read her books and then gotten into the occult. There's a lot of fear-mongering around the Enneagram, and I think we just have to name that. I don't know anyone who has joined a cult or gotten into the New Age because they used the Enneagram.

You've said publicly that you identify most with being an Enneagram 4. Looking at your former role as president of the ERLC — where your big themes were integrity and doing what's right and seeking reform — I might have guessed type one. But that's the beauty of the Enneagram: it focuses on motivation more than behavior. Can you give us a glimpse of what it's like being a type four? What do you appreciate about it, and what's challenging?

Russell Moore (05:37)

I'm not sure I can really describe what's challenging or what I like about being a four, because I have nothing to compare it to — we only know ourselves from the inside out. So some things are just normal and natural to me without my having any awareness that they're type-specific.

For instance, my wife is sometimes mystified that I have Spotify playlists of melancholy songs. When I lost my dad, I made a playlist of songs about dads and fatherhood that I still listen to, two years later. Her response is: "But why would you do that? Wouldn't that make you sad?" And my response is: "Yeah — and it's great." She just can't quite understand that part. It's not that I have a framework for it; it's just how I'm put together.

On the integrity question — I think fours actually have a similar concern for integrity to ones, though it comes out differently. For fours it's more about a sense of what is real and authentic, of not using words or ideas as tools but actually getting at what's really there. That's an emphasis for fours as well.

Tyler Zach (07:42)

Another theme that seems common to both fours and ones is spotting what's missing — the sense of incompleteness. Fours are often very prophetic in that way: seeing what the church is lacking and naming it. I think of Pete Scazzero as a four. A lot of fours seem to push back against shallowness and pull toward wholeness and integrity. Do you see that in yourself?

Russell Moore (08:27)

I think one of the reasons fours often end up in that prophetic role is a sensitivity to the ways either-or thinking can be destructive. Now, there are things that genuinely are either-or — you can't have both Jesus and Mammon. But a lot of the time, the real danger is in treating something as either-or when it's actually both-and, or vice versa. In the church and in our personal lives, when something goes wrong we often assume the opposite must be the answer. If I came out of legalism, I assume antinomianism is the solution. If I came from chaos, I reach for authoritarianism. Fours can often see that pattern — we can say, wait, there are ways to go off balance that can come from multiple directions. So often the work isn't just identifying what's wrong, but also identifying how we might overcorrect for it.

Tyler Zach (10:21)

That's fascinating. I think of how the church has moved on pendulums over the past century — from fundamentalism over toward progressive theology and back. You can see that in politics too. That overcorrection pattern is everywhere. And you can even see it in individuals, right? Someone who's highly anxious about something, and when you talk to them you realize they're fighting against something they experienced in the past — and now they're guarding against it in the present, even when the real threat is something completely different.

Russell Moore (10:47)

Right. They're seeing in front of them something that happened in the past and they don't want to repeat — often rightly so. But the challenge facing them now may be something completely different, and they're guarding against the wrong thing.

Tyler Zach (11:32)

Is your recent book trying to help people not overcorrect into deconstruction?

Russell Moore (11:41)

"Deconstruction" is a word that doesn't really mean anything at this point, because people use it to describe everything from "I'm going to take apart all the faulty assumptions I inherited and figure out what I actually believe" all the way to "I'm going to walk away from God altogether" — and almost everything in between. So I don't use that word much. Instead I would say: I'm interested in helping people have the right kind of disillusionment.

I think we're at a moment in the American evangelical church where sometimes the healthiest people spiritually and emotionally are the most disillusioned, and some of the unhealthiest are the most enthusiastic about their place in the church. What I'd say is: choose your disillusionment. The illusions are real, and the first step toward health is dropping them. But in doing so, ask: what expectations did we have that we shouldn't have had? And in what ways have institutions and people leveraged religion — sometimes for selfish and manipulative ends, sometimes for abusive and soul-destroying ends? Let's identify that, stop perpetuating it, and do something different. Disillusionment can actually be a moment of clarity that brings us into greater conformity with Christ rather than pushing us away from him.

Tyler Zach (14:22)

Well said. I think the work you're doing creates safe space for people to talk about their disillusionment and find a way forward. A lot of people haven't had permission to do that — especially since 2020. The healthiest people can be the most disillusioned, and that's something I've felt personally as a pastor.

Russell Moore (14:50)

And it's not necessarily cynicism — but cynicism is a real danger. One kind of cynicism just says, "Okay, this is what the church is and this is what people expect, so I'm going to lean into it" — and then we become hacks. Another kind, having been hurt, tries to protect itself by numbing out and walling off from spiritual realities or community altogether. That ends up harming the very people trying to do it. It's hard to avoid that. I think about a friend who teaches high school boys' Sunday school. He said it's very difficult — all it takes is one jaded, cynical kid in the room. He doesn't even have to say anything. It just causes everybody else to shut down because suddenly it feels corny to engage. And the more I thought about it, that's not just a high school reality. That's true everywhere right now.

Tyler Zach (16:26)

Going back to the melancholy playlist — I'm a three with a heavy four wing, and I was also listening to melancholy playlists yesterday. I'll suggest cinematic remixes of pop songs if you're looking for something new — it's very dramatized, like a movie soundtrack, very fun. Okay — I did a SWOT analysis for every Enneagram type, and here are some threats for type four that can lead to conflict when you're not aware of them. I'd love to know which, if any, feels like a pet peeve. First: when others are shallow or inauthentic. Second: when others don't recognize your significance. Third: when others don't try to understand you. Fourth: when others say, "Cheer up, it's not so bad." Do any of those resonate?

Russell Moore (17:57)

The only one that really would be is the first. I tend to become irritated — internally, not externally — with clichés and slogans that don't actually mean anything. Especially when the subject is genuinely important: the mission of the church, American democracy, a family. When something really matters, having people repeat slogans they don't really believe is often quite irritating to me.

Tyler Zach (19:02)

In our last few minutes — can you share a few examples of how the Enneagram has helped you navigate relationships, whether with family or coworkers?

Russell Moore (19:22)

It's helped me a lot with my children. I have a nine, and ordinarily I might have just thought, "He's low maintenance — he's fine with everything." Because if you ask him where he wants to go to dinner or what he wants to do on vacation, his response is always: "Whatever, I'm fine with anything." And he's never going to push. So knowing that, I know I need to work harder. It's not that he doesn't care — it's that he's not going to impose on anybody else. If I actually want to serve him, I've got to do some extra digging to find out what he actually wants. That's been really helpful.

It's also helped in work settings — knowing not just the skill sets but the personalities I need around me to complement what I do. For a long time, my two closest colleagues were an eight and a three. The eight was very healthy — you wouldn't even necessarily clock him as an eight — but he's someone who will charge into conflict and work it out. The three was super organized, thought in terms of systems and structures. It worked really well because I didn't expect either of them to feel or think or create the way I do. And the fact that they brought strengths I don't have was a genuine plus, not a challenge to manage. I couldn't have functioned without them — not just because of who they are as people, but because of the way their perspective and outlook on the world were structured differently from mine.

Tyler Zach (22:43)

I love the story about your nine son — you could have just been passive and assumed he was fine, but the Enneagram helped you realize you need to ask more questions and really draw him out. And the team composition piece is so good too.

Russell Moore (23:14)

I also have two sixes among my five sons. And I had to realize there were moments when I'd say something like, "Hey, there's a story about an unidentified aerial phenomenon that was shot down over Alaska and nobody knows what it is — anyway, let's go to bed." And my wife would say: "You're freaking Taylor out. He really needs to know that it's going to be okay."

Tyler Zach (23:52)

My wife is a type six too — she loves the X-Files and everything UFO-related. And your wife Maria is a type two?

Russell Moore (24:00)

She is, yeah. She's sort of the platonic archetype of a two. There's no real question about it.

Tyler Zach (24:16)

Has knowing that helped you in your marriage in any concrete way?

Russell Moore (24:23)

Yes. Sometimes I think I'm helping her by relieving her of something she's been doing — taking over a task or stepping in to give her a break. And I assume she'll be glad to have that time back. But I've had to learn that if I don't do that the right way, she's going to hear it as: "You don't like the way I was doing that" or "You don't want me to show my love in that particular way." Which is not what I'm intending at all. Knowing she's a two has helped me love her better, because I can think through how she's likely to receive what I'm doing.

Tyler Zach (25:16)

One last question. As someone with a strong four wing myself — and knowing how hard it can be for fours to deal with criticism, to battle inadequacy and disillusionment — how in the world have you, as a type four, survived what you've been through? The criticism from within your own denomination, the sustained public pressure? How have you grown a thick skin and not thrown in the towel?

Russell Moore (25:57)

I've never been beaten up on social media, because in order to be beaten up on social media I would have to be reading it. And I don't — or rather, I look only at the people I follow. I realized a long time ago that I can't operate while constantly worrying about what random strangers think. If I did, I'd be paralyzed. What I have to do instead is: say and do and think what I believe Jesus would have me say and do and think — and have people around me whose opinions I genuinely respect — and then move forward. I can't try to become everything to everybody, because that becomes nothing at all.

I have friends who actually enjoy that kind of sparring online. I've had to say to a couple of them: "I know you might find it hilarious that someone out there is calling me the devil, but I really can do without it." So my friends just don't share that with me. And so I don't encounter it. That's the honest answer.

Tyler Zach (28:02)

That's great advice for fours, but for everyone. Cultivate a healthy way to lead and protect yourself from the things that could genuinely take you out. And you're right that for fours in particular, it's easy to hold onto the negative and let the encouragement slip through your fingers.

Russell Moore (28:40)

Absolutely. I have no idea how many notes of encouragement I've received over the years — most of which I've forgotten. But I still remember a little note from fifteen years ago, in a church I was serving as pastor, that said: "You always look to the right side of the congregation and never to the left." And here I am in 2023 still remembering something from 2008. So I just have to keep reminding myself of that pattern and catch it. And it's not even always the nakedly critical things — sometimes it's the backhanded kind: "I really appreciate your ministry. I know everybody else hates you, but I like you." That's not actually helpful.

Tyler Zach (29:51)

That's so real. For a four, part of repentance and faith is actually believing the encouragement that comes your way — rather than dismissing it with "if they really knew me, they wouldn't say that." That invalidation is so automatic. But receiving encouragement as a gift from God, saying thank you and actually holding onto it — that's an act of faith. It's challenging. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Moore. I want to point people to follow you and your resources. You host the Russell Moore Show and The Bulletin with your colleague Mike Cosper — both through Christianity Today. The Bulletin looks at what's happening in the world each week, which many of our listeners will appreciate.

Russell Moore (30:56)

Yes, both are through Christianity Today. Mike Cosper, whom some of you may know from The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill series, and I do The Bulletin together every week — looking at what's going on in the world and having a good time talking through it.

Tyler Zach (31:13)

Anything else you'd like to say or point people to?

Russell Moore (31:17)

Just — really glad to be with you. Thanks for having me.