an Enneagram podcast where we explore how your personality shows up in all of life. I'm your host, Tyler Zach, and in each episode I connect you with leading experts on how your personality impacts your relationships, mental health, spirituality, and everything in between. In today's episode, I'm joined by Ben Higgins, who many of you know as season 20's lead on ABC's The Bachelor. Together we explore what it's really like to experience life as an Enneagram 4 — from feeling misunderstood and wrestling with shame to navigating fame, marriage, and a deep longing for authentic connection. Even if you don't watch The Bachelor, I know you'll find Ben's authenticity and perspective on life after the show refreshing and meaningful.

After I found out Ben was an Enneagram 4 — through Ian Morgan Cron's podcast — I sent him an advance copy of my 40-day devotional for fours. To my surprise, he read it and endorsed it. He's a great human being doing incredible things. Check out his coffee company, Generous Coffee, at generouscoffee.com — they donate 100% of their profits to nonprofits. I'd also recommend his book Alone in Plain Sight and his podcast Almost Famous on iHeart. Now, without further ado, here's Ben Higgins.

Tyler Zach (02:48)

Thanks so much for deciding to spend some of your time with us this afternoon, Ben.

Ben Higgins (02:54)

I've been looking forward to this for so many reasons. I've learned a lot from your book and from other experts in the field. And I meant what I said: talking about this and discussing it with others — especially as a four — has helped me love myself better, understand myself better, and love God better. So I'm thrilled to be here.

Tyler Zach (03:25)

What have you been up to since appearing on The Bachelor back in 2016?

Ben Higgins (03:33)

It's kind of a loaded question and I want to hesitate from going too deep too quickly — though that is typically my comfort zone. A few things on the practical side: I still work for iHeart. I have a podcast with them that breaks down pop culture — mostly The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. That's been going eight years and it's a gift. It takes about three days a week, two hours per day, and the rest of the time I get to focus on Generous Coffee.

Generous Coffee is a coffee company my friends and I started in 2017. The idea was that we'd start a for-profit business, all agree not to take a salary, and donate a hundred percent of the profits to nonprofits. So if you're a coffee drinker who appreciates specialty-grade coffee, go to generouscoffee.com. I'm also part of a restaurant group here in Denver — about 16 restaurants — that I got involved with long before The Bachelor, and that's grown over time. All of that keeps me pretty busy.

Tyler Zach (05:19)

You've self-identified as a type four. How did you come to discover that? What resonated about that description?

Ben Higgins (05:32)

Therapy. I was sitting in therapy and I kept telling my therapist: I feel misunderstood by everybody. I feel misunderstood by myself. I get frustrated with myself, I get frustrated with others. I always tell this story — I feel like the kid looking through the window at a party I wasn't invited to, wondering why I wasn't let in.

The Bachelor has played a really strange role in my life. It's probably what people know me best from. But during the process — actually during The Bachelorette — one of the producers came up to me and said: "Ben, I don't like you." Which, as an Enneagram 4, struck me to my knees — especially in an environment where I was already uncomfortable. I said, "What do you mean?" And he said: "I don't like you because I don't know you. You don't let me get to know you. You say the right thing at the right moment. You hide when things get difficult. I don't understand you." So we sat in a room for three hours and he walked me through all the things that frustrated him about me. Which was actually very therapeutic. He was doing it to figure me out, not to take me down, and he became a safe space. At the end of it I told him: "You're right. I feel unlikable. I've felt unlikable my whole life."

I've never said that publicly before, but that was a turning point. I think it's actually why I became the Bachelor — because I said something like that on national television and the response was overwhelming. So many people wrote in saying "I feel the same way." It became a kind of mission for me: to speak to people who are feeling similarly. And alongside the therapy and the sense of being misunderstood, someone eventually said: "You should take this Enneagram test." I took it, came out as a four, started reading about fours and thought: yes. Yes, that speaks to me. It's good to know I'm not alone.

Tyler Zach (08:41)

Knowing you're a four and being on TV — a very polished environment where a lot of people are trying to make a name for themselves — what did you appreciate about the show? And what was excruciating?

Ben Higgins (09:09)

I know a lot of people on here have probably never watched The Bachelor or think: who would do that? I get it. What I'd just ask is to understand that this was a real season of my life — three to six months of genuinely trying to figure out myself and what I was looking for when it comes to love and relationships. It taught me a lot that's transferable to life outside the cameras.

What I appreciated: you have no technology and no distractions. No computers, no TV, essentially no phone. You're in a room with anywhere from 25 to 3 other people for hours on end. Your only entertainment is getting to know the people around you or sharing stories of yourself. I found myself actually appreciating that. It helped me understand myself better, and it pushed me to listen to other people's stories more deeply — people from different backgrounds, different faith traditions, different family dynamics. The story became the thing.

What I didn't appreciate — and this mostly came after: the way I handled the fame and the envy and the comparisons, both the praise and the critiques. I think living inside that environment was actually mostly an enjoyable experience for me. My personality type isn't one that's going to be a villain or easily critiqued, because I stayed quiet in a lot of controversial moments. To stand out in that world, I relied on two things: prayer — stay true to yourself — and my journal, which eventually became Alone in Plain Sight. That journal had been with me for a long time. I'd written down who I was before the show started, so I could remind myself what mattered to me. The post-airing period was what really wrapped me up.

Tyler Zach (12:48)

When did your book come out?

Ben Higgins (12:52)

It came out in the heart of COVID — February 2021. It's about connection and community, which is very much what we've been talking about today.

Tyler Zach (13:05)

Alone in Plain Sight — the perfect type four title. Let's talk about the fame. Type fours often have a really hard time receiving and internalizing compliments. Can you describe what it was like to suddenly receive massive public attention, and what that did to you — or how it swung between feelings of inferiority and superiority?

Ben Higgins (14:14)

The complexity of my emotions internally is really frustrating a lot of the time. At first my default mechanism was to say: nobody really understands me, so these compliments are empty. At the same time, the critiques felt heavy — I felt those. Compliments got brushed off.

I made up a theory in my head that as a follower of Jesus, I'm not supposed to take in compliments. I'm not sure where that came from, but I built this story: I'm not meant to feel great about myself, I'm meant to push compliments aside and be humble. But what actually happened was I was taking in the critiques without taking in anything that would balance them. And I still find it genuinely hard to receive a compliment. My wife knows this. If I analyze a compliment and decide it's not coming from an authentically deep place, I dismiss it. That makes it very hard for people to encourage me or keep my head above water.

Then the pendulum swung. I started seeking compliments, started really chasing the words that lifted me up. My ego got very big. The pursuit of fame and relevancy became a kind of mission statement. And then I hit rock bottom — on a red carpet in Los Angeles, of all places. I called a friend to tell him about all these cool people I'd met. He said, "That's really cool, man." And I said, "No, no — you don't understand who I met." He said, "That's awesome, I'm really happy for you." I could hear that he wasn't that excited. I was frustrated. The conversation ended with him saying something that has inspired what I think of as my next chapter of life. He said: "What if this was never meant to be about you? What if it's meant to be about something greater?"

Not only did I believe those words were true — they gave me a purpose outside of myself. And when I stopped chasing relevancy and started chasing story, impact, leaning into the grittiness and the joys of life for others rather than for myself, it brought a peace and a fulfillment that has lasted at least seven years. So yes: fame took me on a roller coaster until I finally stopped focusing on myself and started focusing on something outside of myself.

Tyler Zach (18:32)

I so appreciate your vulnerability. It's really helpful to learn about life through your lens. Thank you for being honest rather than self-promoting. We have a question from a viewer: she says she's quite sure she's raising a type four boy. He doesn't fit in at school, but to her he's absolute magic. What do you wish your parents had understood about you as a kid or teenager? And what could they have done to help you through the years you felt misunderstood and alone?

Ben Higgins (19:28)

I don't know how many people here have been on national television with eleven million people watching — but I do think everyone has their version of a big pivotal moment that doesn't always go perfectly, and there's usually a roller coaster to get to a place that feels right.

My parents did one thing really well: they always allowed me to ask questions. They always made space for conversation. Whether it was about making my bed or why not to cheat on homework or how to respect friendships — it was always a dialogue. I could have a rebuttal. I could say, "Yeah, but I don't see it that way." As a four, that's probably really hard for a parent — maybe even annoying — to have a kid constantly pushing back. But looking back, it was so important. Because of my personality type, I had picked up on cues in the world that other kids hadn't yet. My childlike spirit wasn't gone — it just looked different. It looked like curiosity, like a desire to understand, like excitement about creativity. What my parents did well was never communicate that my voice didn't matter. And as a four, that's one of the ways you can crush someone most deeply: telling them, directly or indirectly, that they don't matter.

What I wish they'd done differently: I'm an only child, which adds a whole other dimension. I got very comfortable in the rhythms of our house and felt guilty whenever I wanted to leave — like I was hurting them by wanting to spend a night with friends. I wish they'd encouraged me more to socialize and get out more. Sports helped, but I could have used that push more.

I was also misunderstood in school a lot because of how I asked questions and how I needed to learn. A classroom setting was really hard for me to sit in. I felt stifled creatively. Most years teachers would say I was lazy, or that I got decent grades but didn't try. I wish my parents had known enough to stand up for me more in those moments — not because I was a rebel, just because I wasn't able to be creative in that environment. Every time a teacher said I was different and didn't get me, it validated a theory I was building in my head. I wish someone had said: "Yes, you're different in these specific ways, and that's a beautiful thing." Instead, I just kept hearing "you're different" without any of the redemptive part of what that meant.

And as a four — guilt and shame come very easily and very deeply. If you want a four to feel something, communicate it through guilt and shame and they will feel it — but not in a healthy way. They'll carry it for years. So for parents or friends of fours: stay away from guilt and shame as tools. That's something to really be aware of.

Tyler Zach (25:54)

Yes — the Enneagram gives us some probabilities to think about. If you suspect your child is a four, there's a good chance shame is going to be one of their core struggles, and knowing that helps you love them differently. Versus a six, whose underlying experience is much more about fear and anxiety — for my son who I think is a six, I have a lot of conversations around managing fear and offering reassurance. Every kid is so different.

Here's a quote I came across from Richard Rohr that I included in the devotional: he says the idea of Romeo and Juliet getting married, having children, and living a wholly normal married life would be too banal — it would impair the universality and greatness of their love. He's saying their love story is so great because it's anything but calm and ordinary. My question: have you ever wanted that kind of drama in your relationships? Have you ever felt discontent when a relationship felt too calm or too ordinary?

Ben Higgins (27:45)

Yes. My wife is conflict-avoidant. Has been since the beginning. Early in our marriage I said to her: "Honey, if I wanted to, I could walk all over you." And I meant it in a real way — not as a threat, but as a heads-up. She will just say yes when conflict comes up because she doesn't want to deal with it. So before we had any big issues, we got advice to start marriage counseling. We go once a month. Sometimes we go in and we're genuinely fine. Other times we have something real to work through.

Yes — I do want to have conflict. I want to talk through things. I remember one of our first dates was to church, and we were driving home afterward. We'd been dating maybe a month. She asked what I thought of the service. I said I'd disagreed with a lot of it and thought certain things had been communicated ineffectively or wrongly. And she just went silent. I was frustrated — "You asked me and I told you." Her silence made me want to shut down: "Fine, I just won't communicate this kind of stuff then." But over time, as we've gotten to know each other and fallen more in love, we've found a balance between those two things. She told me after I mentioned I was speaking at this summit that she asked me some questions about myself at dinner, and afterward she said it was fun getting to know me better. I feel the same way about her. We still don't fully understand each other. That's one of the beautiful parts of marriage — we're continuing to try.

My wife is a nine. She's travel quite a bit herself, but I travel more — gone two or three days a week. So when we're both home, we call it our vacation. Being together is genuinely special because we've been apart. I think if we were just in a routine — I work from home, she comes home, we watch TV and go to bed — there'd be more tension in my life than in hers. She'd probably thrive with that. For me, being apart means there's an element of surprise, of missing each other, of being excited to come home. I think that's actually been really healthy for us and something we'll probably try to maintain as long as we can — finding ways to miss each other, because that keeps us excited for the time we do have together.

Tyler Zach (32:08)

A four married to a nine — I've actually done premarital counseling with a couple in that combination. The Enneagram gives probabilities, not absolutes, so I'd have to know you both to say what's true and what isn't. But in general: a four is going to want the other person to acknowledge that there's a problem — whereas a nine, as part of the positive-outlook group along with twos and sevens, tends to say "it's fine, everything's okay." And the fours, sixes, and eights — even though they're very different types — all share a conflict style that wants to raise the flag and say "this is a problem." There's juice in getting things out on the table, talking about them authentically and directly. I wish I'd understood that earlier in my own marriage to a six. Knowing that she just wants me to say "I see what you're saying, this is a problem" — and not gloss over it — would have saved a lot of early heartache.

What do you appreciate about your wife as a nine? What first drew you to her?

Ben Higgins (34:10)

In the most complete way I can put it: her love for others. Her love for family, for friends, for the outsider. Her genuine sweetness in those situations. I feel jaded a lot of the time — I have to fight my cynical spirit. I've gotten better at that since recognizing it, and I'm even kind of grateful for it in its own strange way. But she balances us out with her sweetness toward life. That's one thing.

The other is her loyalty and her deep desire to love me well. From our first date to our wedding day to today, I've said to her: "I could walk all over you — because you come into this marriage with just this complete desire to love me." And I come into it wanting love to be gritty and raw and authentic and sometimes hard. I want us to go to the depths together and come back out. The four-nine combination we've found works in that the heaviness I bring and the lightness she brings meet somewhere in the middle, because we both love each other enough to try. It keeps our relationship exciting, fun, and grounded. If you met my wife, you'd immediately see: she is the kindest, sweetest person. She doesn't have complaints about much in our life. I complain about everything.

Tyler Zach (37:06)

Nines have that wonderful quality — very down to earth, what you see is what you get. Fours are a lot more complex, with a lot more longing. One characteristic of fours is that they long — similar to how sevens long for new adventures or the grass being greener, fours have a longing that often fixates on something that feels distant or unavailable. Do you resonate with that theme of longing? And when life or love doesn't match your ideal, how do you cope with the disillusionment or discontentment that follows?

Ben Higgins (38:24)

Definitely. I'm a tough human to be married to. My wife would say I'm a husband who cares deeply, is loyal, would never hurt her on purpose — all the checkboxes of what you'd want. And then in the same breath she'd say: he is insanely complex. Being my partner means navigating my longing.

I see it most clearly in communication. She'll come home from work, I'll be processing something difficult, and I'll share it with her. She'll be putting dishes in the dishwasher and say, "That makes sense." And I'll just go: "What? Do you not hear me? That doesn't make sense — the whole reason I'm telling you this is it doesn't make sense to me." It feels dismissive. I think my longing is for an ideal of how she'll respond to every situation — and no human can live up to that. On the other hand, she's learned that when I have something on my mind, I usually don't want a solution. I want to be heard. I want her attention. And she's probably thinking: how does this man have an issue every single day?

My longing is for a perfection of communication and response that is genuinely unattainable — not because she doesn't care, but because no human could live up to it. She understands me better than most people in my life. But if I'm honest, she would say: I don't understand him as well as I thought I would understand my husband. He's complex all the time.

Tyler Zach (41:11)

That makes so much sense. What I love about the Enneagram is it gives us language for what's happening under the hood. Fours are sometimes called high-maintenance — not in a bad way, but in the sense that people don't always know what to do with them. And there are other types who are so low-maintenance they're almost flat: not bringing juice to the relationship, thinking they're keeping the peace, but actually not investing or living with vitality. To use a music analogy: some of us are too flat and some of us are too sharp. The Enneagram at least gives language to explain: if I know you're a four, I understand why you're getting passionate about something. You're fighting for a value. You're not just being dramatic.

Ben Higgins (42:11)

And I'd add: the outlook it gives us has been huge. We have a marriage I could never have dreamed of. It's awesome. Marriage has been so fun and has brought so much to my life. One of the things we've both had to do — being two very different people — is to see ourselves as a unit. We are one now. When she brings the lightness and I bring what I'd call the over-sharpness, and we come together as a unit, there is actually balance. There's joy. And I think our unit, when we're doing it well together, can bring real impact to the world around us. We might be more balanced than either of us would be alone.

Tyler Zach (43:25)

One last question from a viewer: are there any types you've particularly clashed with as a four?

Ben Higgins (43:38)

Honestly, probably nines — in friendship settings rather than marriage, where the level of commitment to understanding each other is different. A peacemaker can come across to me as dismissive. They're trying to bring peace when I'm trying to dig into a value or find a real solution, and it can feel like they're brushing off my concerns.

I'd also say sevens can be hard for me. One of my best friends in the world is a seven, and he just consistently seems to be living in a state of euphoric joy, never quite seeing the difficulties around us. For me, authenticity is a core value — I want to go deep together, dig into the hard stuff. That can be frustrating when someone isn't interested in doing that. And then — and this is one of the complexities of myself I don't fully understand — I don't like to be challenged. Or rather: if I'm challenged, it has to feel appropriate. If someone challenges me in a way that doesn't feel right, it can throw me off quickly. I can feel pushed into a corner. I'll also feel really down on myself afterward, wondering what I missed before I came to the table. I don't want to bring something and have it immediately challenged — because then I feel like I didn't do my due diligence, like I showed up unprepared.

Tyler Zach (45:47)

That makes total sense. Any closing thoughts — anything about being a type four in love that you wanted to share but didn't get a chance to?

Ben Higgins (46:04)

As the Enneagram has become part of my life, and as tools like the devotional have come into the world, the greatest gift it has given me is to understand myself better. But as I said in my endorsement: it's also helped me love myself, love God, and love others better. Part of that is having the ability to learn — not to adjust who you are, but to understand yourself better. Now I can pick up in the moment when I'm doing something that feels too complex or too deep to someone else, and I can say: okay, this is just who I am. Let me take a step back, listen a little better, try to come to the table with a different spirit.

And it's been really fun to learn about the other types — not just to know about them intellectually, but to be able to love them more. To realize: my mom isn't just difficult. She's wired this way — and here's what she's looking for, here's where her protective patterns tend to show up. Knowing that has helped me love her and have more patience. And with my wife: she's not just dismissive. She hears me, she cares — she just also hears me and wants peace. That knowledge changes everything.

Tyler Zach (48:11)

Beautifully said, Ben. Thank you so much for spending your afternoon with us and for your transparency. Viewers in the comments are saying they learned so much from hearing the lived experience of a type — not just bullet points, but real stories. That's the gift you gave today. You can follow Ben on Instagram at higgins.ben, and check out Generous Coffee at generouscoffee.com. And his podcast, Almost Famous, is on iHeart. Thank you, Ben.

Ben Higgins (49:10)

Generous Coffee — generouscoffee.com. We do wholesale and retail, so whether it's your household or a church or workplace, we'd love to get in there. And Almost Famous is on iHeart — we put out about four episodes a week right now. If you're into pop culture, come listen. We also have a segment called Almost Good Advice, where people write in their problems and my co-host and I try to give decent counsel. I think that one would resonate with people here, even if you're not into pop culture.